So what is the intended effect of forcing you to do things that you do not want to do and emotionally abusing you if you fail to comply, every day? How can you teach someone agency by traumatizing them if they attempt to exercise it?
The US school system sounds like it has systemic problems, and may have bad results. But to say that the whole aim of the system and those in it is to kill creativity and individualism is ludicrous.
>> "how do we make students do what we want and perform the way we want"
I've never, ever heard it put that way by people pushing educational reform or by educators themselves. "How do we help children learn better?", that one comes up quite a lot but is rather different.
>> I have NEVER seen the question "how do we encourage students behave in ways that we do not expect".
By acknowledging that not all children learn well in lecture/"traditional classroom" formats and doing something about it. But that would undermine the system.
This is acknowledged, as is parental choice. You don't have to send your kid to that kind of school or to any school at all, but you do have to educate them.
I struggle to find this unreasonable.
The people (via the state) fund a particular model, it's true. And you'll never catch me arguing it's not full of all sorts of flaws, but I would still dispute that suppression of individuality and creativity are even a minor goal in state education, let alone a primary one.
> You don't have to send your kid to that kind of school or to any school at all, but you do have to educate them.
Sounds reasonable on its face, but the reality is that if you try and homeschool you will face all types of resistance from the educational establishment. Tellingly, you will encounter that resistance from public primary schools (many colleges love homeschoolers). This is because the primary goal of the system is to strengthen and reinforce itself. This is so that it may have complete power to create generations of people who contribute to making a strong country through work and capitalism.
This purpose may be good or bad, I leave that judgement as an exercise to the reader. But let's not pretend that any of this is done in the best interests of children.
Do you think it is criminally negligent for a parent to bring up their child without any education whatsoever?
Do you think the state should intervene to protect criminally neglected children from their neglecting parents?
Most people I know, myself included, would say yes to both questions, and therefore the establishment of compulsory education is at least in part directly intended to benefit the children. Education is shown to be one of the very few reliable indicators around the globe of both individual and societal prosperity. How we educate is always up for debate.. should we educate is typically not.
Being educated is the default state of being. An education is literally available everywhere, and kids especially seem to get excited about the process. Parents would have to explicitly set up an environment to prevent their kids from receiving an education of some kind, which, I agree, would be troubling. How realistic is that kind of environment though? Aside from that, it really is just a question of how.
No, no it isn't. Look around the world. Ignorance is the default state of being and continues to be the state of being in a lot of places.
>> An education is literally available everywhere,
You and I have different definitions of education.
>> and kids especially seem to get excited about the process.
Some do, some do not.
>> arents would have to explicitly set up an environment to prevent their kids from receiving an education of some kind, which, I agree, would be troubling. How realistic is that kind of environment though?
Very. Watch your cartoons and shut up.
>> Aside from that, it really is just a question of how.
It's really not, it's a question of giving access to learning to kids whose parents can't afford to educate them or don't care. There are a lot of these folks. In the days before mandatory education kids were put to work to support the family, social mobility was close to zero and... well it was Victorian. Compulsory education has been a huge step forward.
Well, you could start by forcing children to sit still (!) in the same room every day, lecturing them about things that they do not care about, forcing them to do things that they do not want to do, finding ways to shame them if they do not obey, and then insisting that this is what education is and what the process of learning looks like.
That would be one way to teach them not to seek education.
No, to believe that the current system is a deliberate form of torture might show that you have some scars from that time in your life that could do with talking out. I didn't say (or even imply) you were mad.
And you didn't have to be there, your parents had a choice like everyone else's.
No, scars imply you were wounded and you still bear marks. Nothing more.
It is an attempt to pass off your reaction as not legitimate, yes, because it's not. I'll say it again - you didn't have to be there, nobody was forcing you to be in that classroom, that was your parents choice. The only choice they didn't have was not to educate you at all.
--edit-- Further on the scars thing - in your first post in this thread you explicitly talk of emotional abuse and deliberate traumatisation during your schooling, I'm not sure why you would think my suggestion you talk to someone about this is so offensive?
>> But let's not pretend that any of this is done in the best interests of children.
Ummm, yeah it is. Without education they, individually, will find it very hard to thrive in our capitalist system.
Again, I struggle to see this as a bad thing. Yes - one of the goals of the political classes in establishing a perpetuating a compulsory education system is most likely to be economic.
I'm not sure I understand how "people who contribute to making a strong country through work and capitalism" are necessarily devoid of individuality or creativity.
(--edit-- I agree that a lot of systems do end up becoming very focussed on self preservation and expanding their reach, look at the military and police. Education is in no way immune from this, I still don't think that suppressing individuality and creativity are key goals of the system though)
