The original sampling drum machine was created by Roger Nichols in 1978 for now-somewhat-forgotten 70s band Steely Dan. It was called "Wendel" and it received its own platinum record.
The Steely Dan people were notoriously obsessive about drum timing, which was a bad thing to be when all you had were human drummers.
So when they said "It's a shame we can't build a machine to move the drum parts back and forward by milliseconds" Nichols said "I can do that if you give me $150,000." It took him a few weeks.
It was an S100 system connected to a video-grade DAC/ADC sampling at 12-bits and 125kHz - which was incredible tech for the late 70s.
He also built a commercial Rubidium atomic clock for use as a digital timebase in recording studios. (Because why not?)
>"The original sampling drum machine was created by Roger Nichols in 1978 for now-somewhat-forgotten 70s band Steely Dan.
Steely Dan has been a continuous staple of AOR and classic rock radio since their first album in 1972. There was even a huge resurgence of their popularity with the whole "yacht rock" movement. They even won three Grammys for 2001's "Two Against Nature" record.
>"The Steely Dan people were notoriously obsessive about drum timing, which was a bad thing to be when all you had were human drummers."
This is not correct. Steely Dan's stable of studio musicians were the best in the business. Their drummers on this album Rick Marotta, Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro and Bernard Purdie would all be considered perfect time keepers. The impetus for the creation of the "Wendell" was not to make up for precision in time keeping, it's primary function was as a drum sampler. This would then allow Becker and Fagen the ability to obsessively control things like inflection - a softer high hat here, a different snare accent there, after the drums were recorded. It's primary function was not a source of time keeping. For example it's actually Rick Marotta's drum playing you hear on "Hey Nineteen", just sampled via the Wendell and then compiled from many different takes.
One of the most important bands of all time regarding where they took song-writing as well. So yeah, not forgotten at all... also one of the most impactful and relevant North American bands (one that you'll be taught stuff from if you take a good Modern Song Writing program in a serious institution :) )
While I was teaching myself electronics over the course of a year or so, I would listen to the classic rock station as background music. After about a month of listening I noticed I could tell which song would come next. Their playlist was about 48 hours. There are only so many classic rock hits after all. When Do It Again would play, it felt like that was the start of the playlist.
That's a little like saying "now-somewhat forgotten 60s band, The Rolling Stones". Steely Dan is one of the very most highly respected rock bands in history.
Steely Dan is quite a lot more than just a rock band. It was more like a pop band with formidable song-writing. Both founders were very well versed in the tradition of Jazz and the harmonic development that you can find on a ton of steely dan's songs is way, way beyond what you'll find on traditional rock legend bands (Beatles, Zeppelin, etc.)
> Steely Dan is quite a lot more than just a rock band. It was more like a pop band with formidable song-writing.
They're hard to place, that is certain. But you are completely right, their melodic and harmonic content (and famously their anal-retentive perfectionism) was far, far beyond anything else. There's a reason they're held in such high regard in the industry.
That depends on the genre, just as before. With house, hip-hop (most of it anyway) or any other style with funky, playful atmosphere, you want swing in your patterns. With techno, synth pop, post-punk, or any of many other styles that have robotic, cold aesthetic, you want drums programmed straight to the grid, and often without any sincopation in the patterns, too.
Yep, swing is still always within the same timing window and doesn't fluctuate. I mean yeah your 8th note repeating midi hihats with swing won't hit the beat with a perfect precision but the interval between the notes will still remain the same. Beats with swing can still sound mechanic.
The humanizing features OP mentions (like what Ableton live has) introduces random amounts of shifting timings or velocity, which is very different. If you want swing, you'll still have to add that separately.
"The good Doktor is renowned as the only member of the Sisters of Mercy to have remained with Andrew Eldritch through the many incidents of in-fighting, splits and new line-ups. "
Sisters Of Mercy have quite a lot of information on their website about the equipment they use, including a page dedicated to the various Doctor incarnations:
Well, other atomic choices for atomic clocks actually clock too slow to to use (looking at you quartz), or too impractical (cesium). Rubidium is the only choice for clocking audio in.
I don't know: I like some of Rick Beato's content, but I don't agree with him about this. The music industry has been putting out low-rent manufactured music for decades[0]. Computers are just another tool they've used to do that, but computers have also been used to help create great music.
[0] Seriously, there's a bunch of great music from the 60s - and that's what everybody remembers - but there's also a ton of absolute pap from that same decade. You just don't hear it too often any more (thankfully!).
> there's also a ton of absolute pap from that same decade
While this is no doubt true, the rate has plummeted from (say) 15% greatness to 0% greatness among commercial music. The business model has changed, with 360 contracts and producer-centric, sales-hyper-focused development. There's great music out there, but it's not being produced by the big labels any more, and that's something truly, and unfortunately, new.
I agree 100% but it clearly wasn’t computers or quantization that caused the shitward turn. I love Rick Beato as well but I think he’s conflating two different issues on this one.
Well, yes and no. Ultimately this was all caused by Napster, iTunes, Spotify, and the near-death experience they caused in the music industry. I think the labels were forced to change their business models because of them. Computers and digitization of music made those distribution services, and near-death experiences, possible.
After deliberating for a very long time, I ended up buying a Maschine and not an MPC. I thought the standalone nature of the MPC would be great for getting me out of the "engineering" mindset and into the "playing an instrument" mindset. The Maschine does that, because you can (and should) work with your computer screen turned off. It's not any less portable because (most) MPCs don't work on batteries and laptops are pretty easy to carry around these days. And it lets you perform the "MPC way" (finger drumming, sample chopping) as well as a more traditional way (play notes and chords on synths and edit them live). Playing on its pads like a melodic keyboard is very inspiring for me - there's no priviledged scale or distance like on keyboards, it's all by ear and feel and it helps me be a lot more creative with my melodies.
Anyone into electronic music should have one in my opinion.
I used to use an MPC and I got to try a Maschine for a bit. I fell in love instantly. It takes the technical power of a full production studio and makes it feel like you’re playing with a toy you’ve had since childhood.
Between that and the synths Native Instruments makes, go with Maschine.
With the exception of the original Massive, Kontakt, Reaktor, and (the defunct) Pro-53, I feel like its really hard to get something I like out of their synths. I've bought several of the regular Komplete kits over the years (their black friday sales are always generous, even for upgrades) and as they get more stuff they feel more disappointing. Some of the version upgrades hit especially hard (in a bad way), like Battery 3 to Battery 4.
And they keep releasing new versions of things without fixing annoying quirks in the previous versions...
As much as I want to like them and their software integrations I find myself reaching for other companies' plugins... like Serum is a way better Massive X, Sytrus is a way better FM8, etc etc
I had the opposite experience! I had a 3000, sold it for Maschine and MPK49, then just could not stand the Maschine's inability to perform live without a computer.
Despite my MacBook's great specs, I would literally experience software issues involving a crash during a performance 1/5 times to the point where my bandmates said they'd help me buy the 3000 back. Based on what I've heard from other touring electronic bands, there's a lot of the same. Which makes all the sense in the world, as we're literally talking about a dedicated piece of hardware with integrated firmware, vs. a VST, in a DAW, on an Operating System. That's three levels of abstraction.
Agreed. I'm in a touring electronic band and I don't use my Maschine live. I find it absolutely essential for certain in-studio things, like tapping out drum beats or doing interesting sample splitting. But I'd rather use my DJ controller (Xone K2) or an Ableton Push live, as it's deeply integrated into the DAW that you're using. There's just nothing better.
I’ve owned an mpc 3000, as well as the mpc-60 and sp-1200. I still own an sp-1200. Why?
I loved the mpc 3k. For it’s time it was great. It held a ton of samples, sounded great and was a great “dawless” way to make music.
I still own an sp-1200 because it is so limited and causes happy accidents often. I have no interest in using an old slow computer to make music. That time is long gone. I can use any number of DAWs to record and sequence anything I want in a manner that is way more complex than any mpc or drum machine can do. The sp-1200 has a sound and quirkiness that for now I don’t want to live without.
As an aside, I emailed Roger Linn after purchasing an upgrade for my MPC 60. After the 3000 was introduced, Akai went bankrupt and was purchased by InMusic. They promptly told Mr Linn to ____ right off and they will not pay him royalties for the 60/3k anymore. I completely understand that he is definitely salty about that. (In fact I have had a similar circumstance with some software I wrote). I think Roger has been working on a successor to the linndrum and mpc series (and no not the Linn/Dave smith tempest) that is a vision of where he wants to see drum machines go.
The mpc series was great and helped create a few genres of music. I think the time is here for the next paradigm shift.
Edit..
Hate to be pessimistic here, but this entire article seems to be written solely to inflate the price of these things...
They are relatively plentiful, theyre generally reliable, and I bought and sold the MPC 3000 I had 2 years ago for between 1000-1500 bucks.
There is a trend as of late on Reverb/eBay to push the nostalgia and drive 'vintage' gear prices into the stratosphere. Gearheads beware- this is a bubble in the making...
The vintage gear bubble is happening in other realms, too: Commodore 64s and Apple IIs regularly sell for $300+ – triple what they would have sold for ten years ago – while you can still get an Atari 800XL for $129.
I’ve been thinking for a long time that there is still a lot of opportunity for instruments like this - with a custom device OS, purpose built for music making, lots of I/O, good hardware interface. I wish music hardware manufacturers would just add an HDMI or display out on their devices, and then perhaps we could have a lot more screen real estate without needing a computer.
Considering the number of times that desktop OS upgrades, desktop hardware problems, etc. have impacted using PC or Mac based DAWs, I don’t understand why manufacturers aren’t going more aggressively after specialized music devices (other than the cost).
The new Akai MPC One or MPC X are pretty close to what I mean, but if they had just added a monitor output... even via USB, so one could get a larger screen experience...
I've made a comment about this on hacker news before. It's only a Mac thing. You can install a 15 year old DAW on Windows still to this day. You can't install something from 3 years ago on Mac.
That being said I use an Akai MPC Live and a Roland Fantom because I've been burned by OS and VST's. I only use a computer to arrange and finish the audio. It's also a better workflow for software developers because your not staring a computer screen to do music, which works for me. If you want a cheaper setup a MPC One and something like Yamaha Modx works fine too.
Ehh, this has mainly only been true since Catalina dropped 32 bit support. Although I still run a quad core G5 with 16GB RAM and 2x1TB SSDs to run Logic Pro 9 and a legacy version of Pro Tools I have a license to, amongst tons of PPC only VSTs.
However, the dropping of 32-bit support was low, inexcusable, and just an overall dick move to the hardcore audio enthusiasts more than any other single demographic of MacOS users. What a backhanded move to a demographic they diligently worked so hard for years to retain and create a user base for.
I've been using Apple products for about 16 years. More or less, due to sticking with Mojave, other than a few things I prefer on my G5, I can use those same tools today. The disappointing thing is since Catalina, alone; that's no longer the case.
Pre-Catalina, I could state by experience your statement would be unequivocally untrue. Catalina needlessly makes me have to reconsider using the MacOS platform. For shame. Even if you're transitioning to ARM, there is no need to pointlessly deprecate what already works in the meantime. Just drop 32 bit support for ARM. Come on, guys. You're making a dedicated user of 15 years lose her faith, here. :/
You have taken a platform with an already limited amount of software and willingly decreased the amount of available software significantly with what you have called an upgrade. I can't possibly understand.
It's not a Catalina thing. How long have you done music on Mac? Went through this with Snow leopard. Then with Mountain Lion. I can't install Rapture, Dimension Pro or Z3ta from Cakewalk after Mountain lion. Again Windows 10 just fine. Mac is a horrible platform for music and if I didn't do mobile development I would drop it in 5 seconds. Mac has literally become a joke in the computer music community.
> custom device OS, purpose-built for music making, lots of I/O, good hardware interface.. HDMI or display out..
There's a history of such devices built by/for professional and hobbyist musicians, and it seems increasingly it's becoming more accessible to the public, with low-cost microcomputers like Raspberry Pi.
It might be too niche for big companies to care about, but I'm hoping that there's enough of a trend/demand for specialized music devices that are tiny computers one can hook up a monitor or SSH into, and hack to our hearts' desire.
As a hobby project, I'm building a programmable sampler/sequencer with PiSound. It comes with a custom Linux distro for low-latency audio.
I love that the musical possibilities are endless, extensible with commodity hardware and software. I believe there's plenty of room for innovative products that provide curated setups, like synths and drum machines.
I for one would love to know more about this sequencer! I have a PiSound and am wondering if I can make a sequencer myself-- I'm inspired by Berndard Sumner--he made one (New Order).
There is an idea floating around in my head of being able to describe rhythm patterns with just a few characters...and then branch them and control transitions between the branches, with some controller...arrows? Joystick?
> I don’t understand why manufacturers aren’t going more aggressively after specialized music devices (other than the cost).
Because of cost...
> The new Akai MPC One or MPC X are pretty close to what I mean, but if they had just added...
and flexibility. Different users want different features and UI, at different price points. Software platforms let manufacturers please more people more of the time, without extensive product lifecycle dead time and irrecoverable sunken design and production costs.
The VST integration is called Overbridge [0] and is available for all of the modern non-Model Elektron hardware.
I understand the appeal for display options but to me besides sound, the whole point of hardware (especially drum machines) is workflow which is kind of at odds with looking up and down at a screen or using a mouse to to control things. Drum machine muscle memory is an extremely powerful force but I guess it also depends on what kind of music you're making or how many tracks you're using.
I bought an Analog Rytm on the cheap a few months ago and have yet to plug it into a computer. Previously owned a Machinedrum UW and Monomachine nearly ten years ago which definitely helped with Elektron workflow familiarity. I've always found Elektrons to be easy to dive into but some of the other features definitely take some time to learn. Worth the time investment though.
I strongly agree that the whole point is workflow more than anything else. I use my Octatrack like a DAW so I don't even need a computer. My computer is more like a digital "tape" machine nowadays.
My Machinedrum and Monomachine are to my left and right. :)
Ah, that's right. I would have expected a refresh of that by now but the company has gone in a different direction with lower priced devices so who knows.
Who says we don't listen to young people? We listen to their music and their art and they're thoughts on how to use these devices. Dr. Dre used to use one of these in his music in the early days with great success. He made gourmet meals out of it. Many people listened to his thoughts on the MPC 3000 when he was young cause, clearly, he mastered the use of it.
But then when it comes to the engineering of the device in the first place we listen to the old guys who built it. Cause that's usually who builds these things. Expert engineers, who busted their asses in school to understand the science to create these things.
Anyone who's rational listens to other people regardless of their age, depending on the domain of knowledge. The point is that we listen to people who have proven themselves in a certain domain.
So, just cause I'm young, don't listen to me about car repairs and or car maintenance. I know jack shit about it. My track record with cars has been awful.
I would argue that they are not created by tech hackers. The ones known about in popular culture are created by businesses, and quite often great minds in those businesses. The people using them are often the ones taking them further then their creators imagined.
The great (big) music businesses listen to artists (like benevolent thieves) because that's the only way to build relevant products that stand a chance of delivering ROI.
I’m currently saving towards an MPC One. I’m glad that Akai went back to making stand-alone MPCs (previously they had switched from stand-alone instruments to models that had to be used while connected to a laptop). I can’t put my finger on why, but making music on a general purpose device like a laptop is just not as enjoyable as with a single purpose device like a stand-alone groovebox or synth.
I bought a One a few weeks ago. It's now the centrepiece of my setup. You can connect a MIDI-interface via USB and have all your MIDI I/O needs covered.
I'm still a beginner. And not a producer but a tinkerer and jammer...
It provides MIDI Clock and Start/Stop to my connected hardware if I want to use the included sequencers of those. I also use to sequence mono and poly synths including patch selection via MIDI program change, so I can load the corresponding sounds for my Sequences. Sequences I either program directly on the MPC or record what I play on a MIDI Keyboard connected to the MPC. Misplayed notes I can correct in the grid view on the display.
For the drums I either program drums on the MPC (via included sample kits or samplekits I compilated myself from other sources, or I just start the sequencer of connected drum machines.
Recording is either via Cubase on the PC or via a Zoom recorder I connected right to my mixer.
after the very long honeymoon period of desktop digital audio workstations, people are realizing that standalone machines with domain specific physical input interfaces aren't such a bad thing. take the power of a desktop DAW and marry it with the exploratory, jamming capabilities of a synth with lots of knobs and you'll have your answer as to why people are getting excited over these setups. when creativity strikes, i want to just be able turn on my device, hit record and get going. i can't tell you how many times my jam sessions have gotten derailed before they even started because of having to fiddle around on the computer to get it ready to record
One is fantastic but you have to be aware of it’s limitations - particularly around network connectivity, something that even OG MPC Live is better at.
Of course if it’s not a factor for you (it’s not for me, I like my One) - then it’s indeed amazing.
I use the MPK mini which just feels unnatural compared to a "real" synth. But of course it is way more flexible and sometimes the right tool for the job.
Probably there is some very minimal latency when using a USB midi device to trigger sounds on a laptop that takes away from the feel of playing a live instrument.
I think it’s not wanting to mess with a laptop while under ‘creative influences’. A standalone device is usually easy to master, the buttons create a limited mental map that can be learned and not given a second thought. On a laptop the enormous possibilities are oftentimes a distraction and the process is less constrained. You probably heard the ‘Less is more’ adage. That is particularly true for the creative process where constraints force the creative process to be more fruitful.
IME (drumming on an Ableton Push) latency around 20ms feels "instant" enough, and even ~80ms is manageable. and afaik that's mostly limited by the soundcard/drivers/cpu speed - you set a low audio buffer size and hope your PC can keep up :) i don't think USB latency really comes into it unless you've got a really garbage port/hub
Though at that time, people was all drolling over the Linn 9000 marketing, a machine late to market and took even longer to get all the bugs out - never got to play with one, my music era faded away by then. Shame as went from the top to nothing and the Linn Drum kinda pioneered the market https://youtu.be/pWfCYgRW_6k Those Tom drums and other sounds, will sound familiar to so many people of many decades and music styles.
As for best drum machine - really gets down to how you define that, more so what style of music you view it from and era.
though the TR707 for programming, great interface and one that holds over time for ease of use and results.
Those old Roland TR-models have a very distinctive set of sounds. They’re not realistic but I still here them when listening to music sometimes.
I didn’t have one but there was a virtual tr808 which mimicked the hardware interface and sounds. The interface was very good( though turning nobs with a mouse was a pain). Sometimes I longed for a more computer like interface.
Those old Roland sounds cut their teeth at a time of much change in the 80's and the birth of many styles that prevail today. They became cult sounds in themselves, same with many syths and even today some old syths are still in demand so much and so scarce that replica's have started to go mainstream with the likes of https://www.behringer.com/ showing how big a demand there is.
>Sometimes I longed for a more computer like interface.
As well as the TR707, had a Yamaha CX5M - poor persons DX5 synth. Probably one of the first dedicated computers for music making - consumer wise as not going to even count the Fairlight that was £50k+ back at the same time.
But was always fun when you can listen to a song, know what equipment is being used - and groan as you hear the same presents.
You can get external interfaces that you can map onto virtual kit. Sliders, knobs, buttons. Though an many external music keyboards with extra controls, so with some key binding - the pain can be removed.
My personal experience with hardware devices seem to be the opposite of most people's experiences. So many people buy a lot of hardware that does the same thing as (or less than) a computer simply to not use a computer at all costs - and cost it does! I spent a good chunk of money on a 2000xl expecting a radically different workflow, a paradigm shift, a more 'jammable' music-making experience, and I found that it was the exact same architecturally as working on the computer (or maschine if I want a tactile interface) except 10x slower technically and 40x slower mentally. Nothing was radically different, it was the same beats and bars as I was used to, except it was slower and less capable from a technical standpoint. I get that hardware works for many but for me it's just not so.
All that said I admire the 3000 for its sound capabilities - if they weren't so expensive I'd buy one just to resample masters into. But I guess that's what 'vintage' emulation plugins are for. And of course there's the historical pedigree - enabling the invention of genres and all that.
I own an MPC60 and IMO all the magic in it is with its workflow. To get one just for the sound should disappoint. However it's a nice bonus to be able to use its shitty pre amp as a distortion fx for my other gear.
The 2000XL is nearly 25 years old. No idea how recently you tried one but I can see someone familiar/comfortable with some sort of DAW workflow not being able to easily adjust to one. Just sample load time or dealing with floppies (or zip disks!) in 2020 is kind of a non-starter for me. That said, it's still very hard for me to write these things off when you can go on YouTube and see people create absolute magic.
I never owned an MPC but I own a Tempest drum machine, which Roger Linn designed the interface for. It's probably the most capable drum machine ever made, if you have the time to figure it all out. I've owned it for years and I'm still discovering new features.
I do own a Maschine, and it's pretty much all I could ever ask for from an MPC. Except I wish I could pitch shift different slices.
This was my favorite MPC out of all of them I owed/used. I loved the way my drums/samples sounded vs the 1000/2500 family I had later on. I had to sell it cause our condo at the time was too small for all my equipment. It made me really happy to see this on HN.
When I learned that DJ Shadow made his classic'Endtroducing' on the model-60, I was astonished. There's no better proof that great music does not require splashy gear, 'just' determination and soul. A lot of the best EM ever was made in that era. Simple is good, since nothing will kill an inspiration like tech manuals and a thousand settings to remember.
for those interested in an MPC setup but don't want to shell out $$$ for the mostly-outdated MPC3K, take a look at picking up an MPC1000. it can still be found for reasonable prices and has many upgrades you can install should you desire (JJOS and HD mod highly recommended)
I have to say, I always wondered what the Linn drum sample packs were that seem to come with most free drum machines or open source audio software packs.
I had an Akai MPC 1000. Absolutely true what they say about the workflow - once you start to learn the thing it's crazy how quickly you can get things down. A computer DAW just didn't compare for me purely in terms of speed for quick arrangements. And the timing is fantastic. Everything just feels so tight. There's also the fact that it's not a computer - when you work with computers all day sometimes the last thing you want to do is stare at a screen for hours more.
The Steely Dan people were notoriously obsessive about drum timing, which was a bad thing to be when all you had were human drummers.
So when they said "It's a shame we can't build a machine to move the drum parts back and forward by milliseconds" Nichols said "I can do that if you give me $150,000." It took him a few weeks.
It was an S100 system connected to a video-grade DAC/ADC sampling at 12-bits and 125kHz - which was incredible tech for the late 70s.
He also built a commercial Rubidium atomic clock for use as a digital timebase in recording studios. (Because why not?)