"Learning and adapting to the Chinese system" and "the Chinese government is using constant terrifying threats to coerce public support" are not, in fact, mutually exclusive.
Is it related to screen sharing? They allow sharing a specific window. Without knowing about other processes you may not share the window. You have to specifically allow it in System Preference on Mac though.
Pretty sure in a couple of weeks US will need masks and other equipment. China very likely is the biggest producer of masks and as the number of new cases drops to near zero they have the extra capacity to donate to the rest of world.
So it's OK to make even more people die? I'm sorry but Italy is not over-reacting, prevention is fundamental in an outbreak. Btw, I'm also from Italy, and I'm happy that all the concert/events that I had to go in February/March are cancelled, health first.
I am not paying a visit to my elderly relatives. Nor do I work in healthcare nor elderlycare. So the risk of me infecting a person from a risk-group is pretty non-existant. If someone in such a group is visiting a music festival, that is the risk they are taking.
Time will tell how much the overreacting will cost italys economy. It looks like it is going to be pretty bad. Tourism alone is going to cost big figure numbers.
Even if your life is dominated entirely by self-interest, and the interests of the rest of the population isn't important to you, don't you have any elderly relatives? Or friends with pre-existing conditions?
Speaking only for myself, I have elderly in-laws who I'd rather stick around, a wife with asthma and I know well two people on immunosuppressants. So I'm not taking this lightly at all.
I am not paying a visit to my elderly eelatives in the upcoming weeks and maybe months. So much I have already stated elsewhere. HOWEVER, the original question was how much people are concerned regarding this. And I stand with what I've said, I am not concerened about Coronavirus killing me.
And I think some western countries, like italy, are overreacting.
This is a great loss to Chinese people who have to use worse products such as Baidu and so.com. I was hoping Google's re-entering could result in a better Internet (or Intranet) ecosystem in China but alas...
Since you are one of the few people who support a re-entry of Google into China, can I ask a question? There is no doubt that a cultural gap exists between Chinese and Americans, and their perceptions of the current Chinese government. Should a foreign company like Google adopt the culture of the country they're entering, or maintain the culture of where they're headquartered?
From what I've read, the main opposition is only coming from Americans... oddly enough.
> the main opposition is only coming from Americans... oddly enough.
Precisely because Americans are concerned that the technology as prototyped in the Chinese market might subsequently be applied in a dark-future American market.
It's not farfetched considering the current political climate here.
It's not coming from just Americans, it's coming from anyone who wants to hold companies accountable for their behavior when it impacts the general wellbeing and rights of human beings, regardless of where they live. There's probably just more of that in western, non-authoritarian countries.
> From what I've read, the main opposition is only coming from Americans... oddly enough.
Google is headquartered in the USA. Not only that, but the engineers working on Dragonfly also reside and work in the USA. As such, not only is it not surprising that the main opposition is coming from Americans, but American citizens have a unique right to express it and have something done about that.
If Google execs want to operate in China without being impeded by the American public opinion, they are welcome to spin off an independent organization for Dragonfly and headquarter it in China, where there are no such pesky obstacles.
Just by reading the comments below, I don't think there is any room for opinions of Chinese here. It will be downvoted to hell.
Anyway, I will give you one thing: for Chinese it's about to have an obviously better product to use. It has very little to do with morality when they support it. Of course it's not the case for Americans (or any Westerners) as it doesn't directly affect them.
This is an unfair argument because it's not a matter of 'culture' it's a broader set of ethical issues at stake.
The Chinese are putting people into concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, many are dying and their organs are being harvested.
If the Western press weren't so hypocritically afraid of speaking out - this would be a huge global story, it's a really big deal. This is getting into holocaust territory in 2018 for gosh sakes.
And it's definitely more than Americans speaking out.
I think pointing to different culture and history is a valid point of discussion. The point of view of a lot of the mainland Chinese people I've spoken to is that the post-Mao CCP has done a lot of bad, but also an immense amount of good for China as a whole. Compare the modern CCP with all of China's past governments of the last two centuries, and it's unambiguously better than Mao, the warlords, or the late Quing dynasty. Sure, maybe China would have been better off if the KMT won the civil war, but we can't change history.
The history of what did happen is that after Mao the country went from struggling to feed most of it's people to what is likely the 2nd most powerful country on Earth. It went from GDP per capitalism of $1,000 in 1970 to $8,000 in 2010. China singlehandedly halved global poverty in doing so. While some of it's actions are appalling to foreigners, they are tolerated for historical reasons. E.g. distrust of organized religion stems from repeated religious rebellions that killed tens of millions of people, so many Chinese see the suppression of religion as a necessary measure to ensure social order. In that sense many Chinese have the same underlying ethical framework (don't needlessly cause harm, try to better the lives of everyday people, etc.), but the lessons history taught the country means that they pursue these ideals in a different way, and opt to make different tradeoffs when balancing different needs. While I am indeed apalled by some of the CCP's actions, I can empathize to a degree as to why Chinese people would still have a positive view of it overall.
Of course, this is coming from a Westerner summarizing my interactions so it obviously risks putting words in other people's mouths.
I think you're missing the point. Ask the question "What is the most effective way of curbing sectarian violence?". Both Chinese and Westerners agree that sectarian violence is bad - that's the same underlying ethical value. But the answer to that question will probably differ. At least in the US we try to curb sectarian violence by promoting tolerance and integration. Historically that had worked pretty well for us, we haven't seen much sectarian violence outside of small scale acts of terror and regional conflict (e.g. fights with early Mormon settlers). China, on the other hand, has lost 30 million people due to a religious rebellion in the 19th century. A staggering figure, exceeding even China's WWII casualties. Furthermore, the Holocaust did not occur in Asia (at least the overwhelming majority of it occurred in Europe) so concentration and surveillance of religious minorities does not strike the same nerve.
With that history, I think a person can genuinely, earnestly believe that the CCP's policy towards Uhigyrs or Falun Gong is limiting human suffering in the grand scheme of things. This is what I mean when I say that it's possible to have the same underlying values, but people from different societies can come up with drastically different or even conflicting implementations.
This is moral relativism to a degree. But empathy is an exercise in relativism. I don't like what China is doing to it's religious minorities, and I don't want this post to come off as trying to justify it. But if we do want to convince the country to change it's ways I think it's important to see why the country is doing what it is, and not pick an easy conclusion like saying China or the CCP is immoral.
No, I'm definitely not missing your point, I'm disagreeing, fyi and your comment is shocking and repulsive.
You are justifying, on cultural grounds, the mass incarceration of a minority because 'they could pose a potential social problem, even though they are not presently' which is abhorrent.
Yes a 'cultural context' of Han ethnocentric racism and open bigotry, perhaps, but of course this isn't really justifying anything.
There is no rationalization for arbitrarily incarcerating massive parts of the population, it basically doesn't make any sense at all.
Especially considering the none of the Falun Gong, Tibetans, Uighurs represent any threat to China's peace in the first place.
Every place on Earth has had some degree of calamity or violence in the past, and China has definitely had it's share of mass murder (giving and receiving), there's no shortage of this in their own history books, if anything they should be even more enlightened about it all.
There are no cultural arguments that can be made here, the situation, particularly because of the deaths and subsequent organ harvesting, is approaching 'holocaust' terms.
> they could pose a potential social problem, even though they are not presently
It's because
> This region is exhibiting separatism over religious lines, and our country has an established pattern of religous separatist movements turning into catastrophic wars that claim tens of millions of lives.
In short, while Westerners might see mass incarceration of religous minorities and think, "holy cow, if we don't do something this will be another Holocaust" Chinese might look at Uhigyr separatism and think, "holy cow, if we don't do something this will be another Taiping rebellion". The former occurred more recently, but the latter was several times larger in magnitude. I'm not Chinese myself so I can't speak to the magnitude of the Taiping rebellion in their social memory. But the point is I can at least empathize with their point of view even if I find it's results abhorrent.
And as I have stated repeatedly, do not mistake justifications of Chinese opinions as justifying the actions themselves, and I have repeatedly stated that Chinese treatment of Uhigyrs appalls me. The fact that you accuse me of justifying their actions in spite of explicitly stating otherwise is indicating that you aren't reading my comments with the degree of attention that is necessary to have a productive conversation on a controversial topic like this.
Your understanding of this issue is much better than many HNers
on the reason why the "concentration camp" exist. Most HNers get all information from West Media with many convincing "evidence" with map and photo analysis. That's why you "appall".
However, there are other sources of information selectively filtered by media. For example,here's a story of a famous Uhigyr celebrity went back to her alma mater (in Chinese):
The Uhigyr celebirties are disproportional more than Han based on their poplulation. But they seems to work/live like nothing happen although the whole world are angry. There are 2 possible reason:s
1. They(all of them) don't care about their compatriot
2. They know the "camps" but they also know the real nature of the "camps".
Most Chinese know these celebrities very well through entertainment news. One even show up on TV almost everyday. If you were a Chinese , which reason would you bet?
3. They are disgusted by the camps, but they know if they speak out they'll end up inside one.
China keeps a tight leash on its celebrities. The government is willing to make even internationally famous ones like Fan Bing Bing disappear for months without explanation. It probably wouldn't take much to make one of the Uhigyr celebrities you mention disappear permanently.
What I said to the other commenter also applies here: don't confuse my empathy with why these camps exist with approval.
Empathy is unnecessary in this case. I would frame it as entertaining a thought without accepting it, as in Aristotle's educated mind.
Moralizing is an easy to way to stop thinking and settle in a comfortable narrative, a cop-out so one can avoid questioning their own ideological identities. The thirst for a comfortable narrative is so strong today few can resist it, which almost looks like we live in an era when we can no longer afford entertaining different thoughts.
Think of it as how Americans are completely tolerant of communists while people who lived under communist rule tend to be not so much. Americans have not experienced Cheka, Holodomor or Cultural Revolution. They also have not experienced Taiping rebellion or any of the other massive slaughters that happened in China over religion. Think 30 year war except it happened quite recently.
Would I be ok now with now with grabbing every random moron wearing commie t-shirt and throwing him into re-education camp? No. 15 year old me who just finished reading Archipelag Gulag and was finally told my family history during Holodomor? Well I would get a rope, find a tree and get to work.
Things like this are very complicated. Having said that Google is idiotic trying to reenter PRC market. Communist party will never allow them to grow to any degree there if they have any independence, they would need to become a servant of the party 100%, even then.. likely they will just get all of their tech stolen and bunch of intelligence officers placed into leadership roles. There is NO path for them to grow in China and succeed, what they sell is too valuable for control of people to allow foreign controlled entity any growth inside PRC.
> The Chinese are putting people into concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, many are dying and their organs are being harvested
A few glossy points are made here that rides on a racial or national stereotype.
1. It was Chinese government put people in concentration camp, not Chinese. In the current political atmosphere, I am very cautious to draw this line as a Chinese myself, for the fear of mobbing attacks on Chinese people oversea.
2. many are dying and their organs are being harvested
You need to have reports to support claims of such outrageous behavior. Also it's not clear what is the actual things being done.
Are people dying naturally in the camp, and got organ harvested? Or they were left to die without reasonable medical attentions.
I presume the organ extraction has not got consent from the people, right?
#1 is a good point, but in my experience, 'The Governments' approach to Tibetans, Uighurs etc. has the general tacit support of 'The Chinese' and by that I should say 'Han'. Han ethno-nationalism is total and out in the open, it's normative. I suggest most of non-minority China actually supports much of this.
As far as #2, it's splitting hairs. People are put in jail because of their ethnicity or faith, and one way or another, organs are being harvested on mass. Discussions of 'did the prisoners approve of their dismemberment after execution' are just a little insulting really.
The link you provided is for a Japanese budasim presit who still has hairs. Could you at least provide some information with first hand authenticity, like from survivor and/or those close to them or the ones died in the camp?
And plenty of American overreactions to terror attacks also had broad support. Same for the Russians, the British, the French..
It's definitely interesting that Chinese nationals were almost universally for dragonfly and yet the "progressive" activists didn't care at all, preferring to pivot the topic into nationalist rivalry. Ask them in a vacuum and they'd say they treasure diverse perspectives..
> It's definitely interesting that Chinese nationals were almost universally for dragonfly and yet the "progressive" activists didn't care at all
Human rights are not subject to a simple majority rule.
And this whole thing isn't about what Chinese want. It's about what Americans are okay with helping Chinese do. If the majority of Chinese support labor camps for ethnic minorities, that's one thing; but when American citizens aid them in filling those camps, then those citizens are a fair target for their compatriots, regardless of what the Chinese think about it all.
Dragonfly is a search engine with the ability to track people who use it, said ability being there for the express purpose of cracking down on political dissent.
I'd love to see you try (and when you speak against it actually highlight how it would be used to send muslims to concentration camps, put anyone who dared to do harmless searches, such as Tiananmen Massacre at risk, etc.). Best case scenario: your posts won't be seen by anyone since keywords such as Tiananmen Massacre will result in it being shadow banned upon submission. Worst case scenario: your life comes to an end.
For me is not thing about culture, its mainly convenient, I travel to china quite often, it sucks to have to mess with vpn which often doesn't work. Human rights issue is little of my concern, it doesn't effect my life in significant way.
Agree. A lot of Chinese like Google more than Baidu but they have no choice. I have no problem to use Google as I'm now in China but a lot of normal people don't know how to get around GFW.
Perhaps Chinese citizens can petition the Chinese Communist Party to foster a better foreign investment environment by putting an immediate end to the forced imprisonment[1], labor[2] and torture[3] of millions of people in China.
How good is Yandex indexing and search technology?...My guess is that probably not even close to Google, and heavily optimized for slavic inflections and cyrilic.
I am not aware of any single South Korean who has used either Yandex or Baidu. They don't even support Korean at all, so why would any Korean bother to use them? Very interested in the source of your statistics, which I guess completely incorrect.
I heard that nowadays search engine quality is largely determined by traffic that's used to infer relevance from user behavior. Less traffic - less quality. Bing, for example, has decent engineers, but since Google is already ahead it will stay ahead if only just for that reason. So I was told.
So Yandex doesn't have that much hope outside of Russia. Unless a dramatic breakthrough is made, of course.
This is just one of many great losses for the Chinese people brought on by the Chinese government. Their government enjoys the benefits of permanent UN Security Council membership but don't respect the very human rights this organization works to uphold. This makes China a less attractive place to do business in.
So, if the Chinese people are so concerned about attracting Google, they could maybe understand that they need to change their government into something that respects human rights.
I'm pretty sure the data DragonFly may collect is much much less than many companies in China are already collecting. The government literally knows everything about you in real time.. which hotel you are in, what websites you have visited, what messages you just sent, etc. So Google won't be able to help Chinese government anyway. On the other hand Google indeed can help the people a lot with high quality search results.
They are yuaigongwu and 51qiji. They have helped numerous patients in China. To be fair, they are mostly patient forums helping each other and most of the medicine for cancer can be purchased with discount in China. They are less expensive than the US but still expensive which is why some poorer patients are seeking alternatives/self made medicine.
Just did some quick calculations, for the bullet train connecting beijing and shanghai which is about twice the length of the cal bullet train system, the chinese spent about $30B
